Kayak vs. Canoe

Thinking about purchasing a kayak of some description....leaning towards touring, unlesss....

What about using a whitewater kayak (the Dagger Outburst is one option) for lake/river tripping in areas like Killarney or Algonquin? Has anybody got any experience doing this? Can it hold enough gear? Is it too awkward to portage? Advice would be appreciated....

There are several reasons not to use a white water kayak for tripping. First and probably most important, ww kayaks don't track (hold a straight line) as well as canoes for the simple reason that their hulls are made to be less susceptible to currents making them easier to maneuver in white water...the complete opposite to the theory behind a ruder on a touring kayak. This makes it quite annoying to paddle a ww kayak on flat water as you are basically correcting with every stoke. Second, ww kayaks definitely hold less stuff as they are smaller. The portaging issue shouldn't really matter; I find it quite comfortable to carry a kayak over one shoulder and remember, you're dealing with a smaller boat than a canoe in most cases, just make sure to empty all the water out! Hope this helps....

Do you have to have your arm raised to hold the kayak in place? That might be fine on short portages but your arm is going to get mightly tired on a long portage.

The original poster specifically mentioned Algonquin and Killarney as destinations. Both of these parks are well known for long, tough portages. It's almost impossible to do an interesting loop in Algonquin without encountering at least one portage over a kilometer long as well as numerous shorter portages. In addition to the question of how to carry the kayak comfortably there is also the problem of how to get your gear over the portage. You cannot plunk a loaded canoe pack into a kayak so the load has to be broken down into smaller packages for stowage inside the kayak after each portage and then repacked into a large pack at the beginning of each portage. This can really slow you down if you have a series of short

Not to comment on whether or not to use a kayak or a canoe (although the Dagger Outburst is high volume, and tracks very well - it wouldn't be bad for a self-supported trip)...

*However* I'm completely puzzled at your suggestion that you unpack and repack the kayak to portage. With the way a typical whitewater kayak is setup, it's just as easy to leave your pack in the boat, rather than pull everything out, put it in a pack, and then go from there. I could see doing that for a (very) long portage, but for short distances, why bother?

cheers!

Wow! this is news to me! I was seriously looking at the outburst as a beginner/intermediate whitewater boat, as well as playing around at the cottage. Will it actually be able to hold stuff for a short trip? great if it does, but what does it trade off for this high volume? any owners out there care to shed light for me?

While I'm at it

Hi there

Every one seems to have advice on the subject of using a kayak for tripping but no one seems to have actually done it. I have.

I have kayaked in Killarny and Algonquin. Here are a few thoughts:

Peter mentioned that every stroke in a WW kayak is a correcting stroke - not quite true. A good forward stroke should not be a correcting stroke, however, a good forward stroke does include 'conter-rotation of the torso' - this means you use your stomach and trunk muscles to brace against each stroke. A day of flat water paddling in a WW kayak is about equivalent to a couple thousand 'crunches'.

Portaging - an unloaded kayak is easier to carry than a canoe, however, put any kind of load in it and try and carry it on your shoulder and you will feel pain. The loaded boat is extremely akward and the cockpit rim digs into your shoulder. You can try carrying your gear in some kind of pack, but again with a kayak on your shoulder this is extremely akward. So every portage becomes two trips.

The Outburst as a high volume boat - huh? I own one (I use an RPM now - but can't bear to sell a good boat). Compared to many of today's extreme play boats the Outburst has more volume, but it originally came out as a low to mid volume WW play boat. Compare it to touring kayaks or cottage kayaks it is low volume. You might be able to get a one man tent, sleeping bag and a couple of days worth of 'power bars' in it but not much more. I see no way to fit a 'food barrel' in it. I like to use an olive barrel for food when tripping, nothing is 'bear proof' but it comes close.

Tripping Experiences - 7 day trip in Kilarny I had freinds in a canoe on that trip, they helped with some of my lighter, bulkier gear. I used a River Runner R5 - kind of a hybrid WW/lake kayak (not really good at either). Portaging was hell. Stomach muscles were destroyed by end of trip.

9 day trip on Petawawa in Algonquin (Brent to McMannus) Again went with freinds who had a canoe who helped with some of my gear. I used a Perception Pirouette - marketed as a WW play boat at the time, now it seems kind of big and bulky. (higher volume than the Outburst). Little portaging - all rapids could be run in a kayak (note some rapids are Class IV - some people may wish to portage). Again, sore tummy at the end.

Hope this helps.

Todd Weiler Get Wet Whitewater Adventures.

I was bying a River Runner R5 Excel in May. It,s a good boat for many things but not excellent in one thing. It has a volume of 360 litres and 4.3 meters(14 feet).

I was test a Perception Dancer (11.6 feet) and for comparaison the Excel is a little more long but very high. It has a storage space in back and a removable skeg. Whitout skeg the kayak is very manoeuvrable but the tracking is very good whit skeg. In wind and waves on St-Laurence river it's very stable, minus if wind became for rear. In R1 and R2 (I didn't test in R3) whitout skeg it's fast to turn. It has an elastic in front and weight 48 lbs (22 kg). Very good for touring.

For portaging I am install a removable 'joug de portage' (I don't know the tranlation in english) like a canoe. And it's cheap ($825 can with paddle and nylon skirt).

Daniel